In a nutshell: Flamer death for everyone! Wounds on 4+, Glances vehicles on 4+...no cover saves...what's not to like about that? Seems like a solid unit, let's take a closer look.
Pros: They are Jump Infantry. They can land and shoot warpfire, then move up and crush infantry with massed flamer templates. They are also a decent tank-hunter unit with their BS4 bolt of tzeentch. With a 4+ invulnerable save and T4 they are decently protected.
Cons: WS2. 1 wound. I3. They do have 2 attacks (3 on the charge) but they really aren't good in CC against anyone but Tau and IG. This is very much a alpha strike unit, able to really really hurt something. Then they get fried. Tactics time!
Tactics: You can use these as very expensive Horrors if you really want to. Since they are only slightly more survivable (T4 vs T3) and slightly more shooty (BS4 vs BS3) this obviously isn't the best use of them. Flaming things is. Drop them 12-16" from the enemy, shoot some infantry, and setup for a flame attack on your real target. If you can clear out the area around your target with other shooting and/or threatening assault troops, you can often alpha strike a unit to death and setup for another alpha strike elsewhere. That's the best way to use them, many players like to icon drop them in for a first turn barrage...there is no need to, and you hurt yourself in the process. People will know what you have planned, but with a rather large 18-22" zone of death around them there is only so much one can do to stop it, you can only counterattack after they do their damage. As a Daemon player, making that as hard as possible (or as dangerous as possible) is indeed the fine art of war and using this unit properly. Always buy the bolt of change if you are bringing this unit. Being able to fire bolts of change at BS4 makes this unit invaluable.
Final word: A very flexible unit, able to deal with infantry easily (a hallmark of Daemon armies) but not able to deal with tanks as easily but they can do it. However, it's an entirely shooty unit, a glass hammer. Shooting the unit down isn't difficult, one rapid fire will usually see it eliminated. Close combat by almost anybody will also see it destroyed. You can use that to your advantage of course, sucking people in to questionable charges or poorly positioned rapid fire units; then hit those units with an assault. All in all, a decent alternative to Khorne Bloodcrushers. Should have been 30 points if you ask me, they seem a bit overpriced.
Flamers of Tzeentch
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6 comments:
I'm not a huge fan of Bolt on Flamers, you can almost get another of the buggers instead. Daemons need anti-tank, but they can get it in much better places.
Otherwise they're an awesome unit and I agree with your take on them. A lot of people forget they have Warpfire and it's a nice surprise when they think they're safe after they drop further away.
I like them in tandem with pavane and icons, getting them exactly where they need to be and BBQ some enemies who were so kind as to start a group hug to get maximum burnination.
When you face a mech horde, you can have useless units running around or you can have anti-tank everywhere possible.
Ranged is best, because whatever is inside those transports will likely light you up if you go near with the flamer templates.
Now tell me this 'better' place to get anti-tank in a demon list.
Pavane yes, icons no. Better to drop the flamers first, spread out...then drop a Pavane Demon Prince and move the enemy while you jump forward and fry them. Makes you much less vulnerable to the return fire, especially templates.
Excellent points as always, it's nice to have a discussion where people don't automatically go to just flaming each other :P
Those better places are going to be Heralds, Horrors, and Tzeentch Princes. Lots of bolty goodness without too exorbitant a cost. Also Screamers for Land Raider popping or just contesting stuff.
If I'm up against mech I'll use the Flamers for cleaning up after a transport gets downed, they all bunch up so nicely I feel like I should oblige them ;)
I've mostly been using Flamers as a cheap suicide unit, dropping in to roast something expensive like Terminators, Nobs, and the like so I can see where we differ on this.
Hmmm.
I don't think those places are 'better'. They are just more places.
Let's really think about it:
A DP gives another bolt, but it isn't really better for the rather large investment of 140 points. Might as well pay 20 points more and get a grinder with the crappy BS3. Won't hit near as well, but also doesn't die as soon as a ac/hb pred looks at it funny.
I note 3 flamers w/Bolt is almost as accurate, and almost as survivable...but is more mobile, has 2 attack types plus the bolt, and costs 5 points less.
Horrors have BS3 all around, and are really only useful in bunches so you can hope to hit something.
If you are blowing up Land Raiders with your screamers, you really need to help your opponents with their play because they suck. Especially Marine LR. Are you really bringing 12 screamers so you can be assured of one penetrating hit on a LR, which still only has a 33% chance of killing one anyway?
Come now, show me how this works...really works. lol
The biggest problem I have with using Flamers for anything besides suicide drops is their survivability. There's only 3 of them and they're crazy easy to wipe out. The DP has all his wounds, the 4+ invul and is a better shot than the Grinder. I field a Grinder if I'm short on horde control or if I've got a more combat-oriented list, the Prince supports the shooty set up better for me.
As for Screamers, I'm content to have them hit on 6's, since that means the tank isn't shooting at all or a LR is just shooting 1 gun. It doesn't always have to be damage dealt, their presence alone can help out.
But you raise some very good points, at least enough to convince me. I'll give Bolting Flamers a try and let you know how they fare.
Bolting flamers are a tactic I frequently use, but not terribly often, because i could give one bolt or just get another flamer. However, it is nice when you fly behind a vindicator and ram a bolt in its rear armor, and the others can still flame it for the 4+ glancing.
Speaking of Breath of Death, as my friends call it, you forgot to mention it ignores armor, essentially reducing the whole "lemme see if i keel u" to a single roll of a 4+. so, if you drop 3 templates and hit everyone in a single-wound squad, you will kill them all with a 1/6 buffer to allow for bad dice. This includes terminators, though their 5 inv screws up that math a little.
BUT, you will rarely hit EVERYONE with EACH template, so much more likely than destroying the entire squad, you will kill half of it, maybe more, maybe less, depending on the size of the squad- flamers will almost always kill the same number of models, regardless of how big the squad is- on average, that number is seven. So, against mobs, their effectiveness is actually reduced- they are great for killing elite units that your foe would very much appreciate alive- striking scorpions, for example.
But, if they do not kill EVERYTHING, the flamers will die. They will either get close combatted and die, or get shot at en masse and die. They are an obsidian knife, a weapon that deals horrific damage, then breaks into a thousand shards when it meets resistance. They have their place- they cannot be used effectively outside of it.
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